Anyone want to join me reading Leisure The Basis of Culture- by Josef Pieper? :)

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    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #15145

      This is one of my Summer Sunday Reads!
      It is a book to savor…..there are a myriad of precious gems to ponder.
      It would be fun to have a friend to join me on this journey…simply share insights! 🙂

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #15172

      I might be interested…I just finished Only the Lover Sings by Pieper. Very thought provoking!

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #15199

      I was recently thinking I’d like to read it again. My reading time seems to be so limited lately though – I’m not sure how well I’ll be able to keep up, but I can try!

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #15529

      Have you started this yet?

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #15628

      Yes! I have slowly started this book!
      We are having a great summer…but, finding time to read such a contemplative book is scarce. 🙂

      I am presently on page 57. I thought the whole discussion starting on page 25..pertainning to “intellectual work” is certainly one to savor.
      I have read it a few times.

      Something to ponder- 🙂
      Hard work is viewed by Kant & some others as good, & on page 33 –St Thomas’ contrary opinion, “The essence of virtue consists in the good rather than the difficult.”

      If you choose to tackle this book you will find it very inviting….but, find a quiet spot,add some tea & some chocolates! Enjoy! Happy Reading!

      • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #21978

        I just finished chapter 2 last night and I also really enjoyed the section on “intellectual work”. I don’t think I realized before how much my thinking has been influenced by the idea of “it’s not valuable unless it was hard” mentality until Pieper laid it all out in this section. I say I believe in schole and learning from rest, etc, but there’s still that root in my mind of “nothing of value comes except through hard work.” I don’t think it ever occurred to me before how close the idea of the “protestant work ethic” (considered a foundation of the free market/capitalist society) really is to the “total work” concept of totalitarian society. Kind of scary when you think about it. It seems that in the first, individuals are “free” to do the work they please, whereas in the second it is mandated of them; but the idea behind both of them is the same…? Maybe I am wrong about that? Just trying to process!

        A couple passages I wrote down in my commonplace:

        “…what Aquinas says is that virtue makes us perfect by enabling us to follow our natural bent in the right way. In fact, he says, the sublime achievements of moral goodness are characterized by effortlessness – because it is of their essence to spring from love.”

        “The Christian conception of sacrifice is not concerned with the suffering involved qua suffering, it is not primarily concerned with the toil and the worry and with the difficulty, but with salvation, with the fullness of being, and thus ultimately with the fullness of happiness: ‘The end and the norm of discipline is happiness.'”

        That second quote in particular really reminds me of Desiring God by John Piper (interesting…Pieper/Piper!) The whole idea that ultimately we serve/work/sacrifice “for God” because we love Him and it brings us true happiness, not because the work makes us valuable, or because we owe God a “debt”…

        • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #21996

          I love the second quote you copied. We are not made to suffer for the sake of suffering, but rather because suffering is the way of the cross. Jesus said “I am the way” and His way is the way of the cross. That’s how we come to be like Him and grow in relationship with Him, and the whole journey is always all about relationship. It’s too Know Him that is the goal.

          Your mention of protestant work ethic and not working because we owe God a debt makes me wonder if the concept of work having ultimate value is tied in to the doctrine of atonement in a sort of twisted way. I only learned about atonement a few years ago, because it is a foreign concept in Eastern Orthodoxy, and I seem to keep seeing threads of it affecting so many of the differences between Protestant thought and Orthodox.

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #15973

      Ok I’ve been able to start. It’s slow going for now, but often I don’t have the time and the brain power at the same time. 🙂

      It’s interesting to me that Kant made such a point to emphasise that if one doesn’t have to put forth great effort to acquire knowledge then it doesn’t count. That idea totally discounts poetic knowledge, or knowledge through experience. Clearly for him any kind of revelation from God would be a totally unacceptable basis for knowledge. Kant always makes me shake my head. Why?… How?… I don’t get how he could believe half the stuff he came up with. Sigh.

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #16093

      I totally understand the conflict with time & brain power…:)

      I am finally going to chew on a bit more in the next day or two. It really is fun to ponder these ideas & stretch- probably into Fall! 🙂
      It is also a good back drop to use as we ponder the new school year! Where does out time go? Are we making margin to savor life & be thankful!

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #16557

      I just got my copy of Leisure the Basis of Culture! BUT…I *also* just got my copy of Mere Motherhood…which is going to be tough for me to set aside I think 🙂 I’ll jump into the conversation sometime though!

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #17478

      I have it on request through interlibrary loan, so it may take a few weeks!

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #18306

      Leisure, it must be clearly understood, is a mental and spiritual attitude…

      This line has been huge for me! It is not about DOING, it’s about BEING. The section where he talked about leisure as an attitude of contemplative celebration also made connections in my mind with our weekly celebration of the Eucharist. That feast of thanksgiving is what we revolve our whole lives around and right there is how we maintain a state of being that is leisurely. We can be at work, while at the same time being in a state of leisure.

      I read a blog post recently about how the early church fathers were writing and teaching from an ontological (having to do with being) frame of mind. It’s a fascinating distinction to make because it changes how we perceive the meaning of their words. The article is not really directly related to this discussion, but I’ll share it here because it is somewhat related: http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2016/08/12/saved-ontological-approach/

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #19412

      It has arrived from the library so I hope to read some after church today!

    • June 28, 2016 at 10:40 am #21999

      …if to know to work, then knowledge is the fruit of our own unaided effort and activity; then knowledge includes nothing which is not due to the effort of man…

      Perhaps this is why so many people are blind to the things that go on outside the realm of rational thought. Miracles are discounted, and revelation is looked upon with a skeptical attitude. Spiritual warfare is considered unreal.

      I have heard a saying (totally paraphrasing here) that the devil’s greatest achievement has been to convince the world that he doesn’t exist.

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